Curse

Sab · Sep 25, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The effect is only minor depending on how much a person was using that skill in its original form.

(snip)

Having a build that is fun to play with changed due to no fault on your part is tantamount to somebody changing the channel while your in the middle of your favorite TV show.

While it does seem unfair, the effect is minor in that nothing in PvE suddenly becomes unbeatable from the result of a skill balance. For the most part, skill bars don't even matter - you can run 8 empty slots and do fine.

The effect of PvP skill balancing on PvE is even less now with GWEN's PvE skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Skill balances are not as extremely important in PvP as most think, what was needed more often than not was a new skill rather than changes to old skills. Adding new skills to offset skills that people veiw as over powered makes no impact on PvE, save it adds new skills that a montser may use against you. Changing skills does have a major impact on how a person plays this game.

Be careful here, there's a large argument in another thread that's caused by someone speaking outside of his own experience. But getting to the point, traditionally, adding new skills has actually made things a lot worse. All the new professions so far still have some fundamental problems, which have a negative influence on the game. Paragons are broken as a class (too much offense + defense), Dervishes have a single overpowering skill (Avatar of Melandru), Assassins have abilities which are just bad for the game (offensive shadow-stepping), Rits promote degenerate play-styles (Spirit Spamming). While this is not to say that the original skills and classes were flawless (e.g. Soul Reaping), I can't see how adding even more skills will fix those problems above. The only way is to balance existing skills.

Skyy High · Sep 25, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

As for changing profession, as i said, the only reason it cant be done is that for pvp ele have to look like eles and war have to look like war. For pve this is not important. The pvp requirement removes design options for the pve element. Therefore pvp hidners pve evolution.

Wow, that's bull**** to the 10th power. How did you manage to convince yourself of that? As if NO OTHER GAME has a class/profession system where your primary whatever is unchangeable...no, obviously Guild Wars introduced the profession system just because it made recognizing classes in PvP easier.

Quote:

Guildwars is a great PvE only game. It is just hindered by PvP considerations. The combination may have been the initial strength of GW but things change.

No, you want it to change. And considering how misguided you are about game design in general, I'd say you're not particularly the voice of reason the devs should be listening to.

Yichi · Sep 25, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

Guildwars is a great PvE only game. It is just hindered by PvP considerations. The combination may have been the initial strength of GW but things change.

Yes unfortunately things have changed. Guildwars' biggest strength and what set it apart and made it unique among online games was the fact that these 2 were developed with the PvP being the end-game aspect behind it and the PvE to support and prepare your character to make this transition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

That is not what guild wars support says. They say if you want to change something discuss it on the forums. I wish to say that PvE is being held back by PvP. And therfore the two should be separate.

Then again it boils down to you bought the wrong game. This version of Guildwars was, is, and will always have skill balancing and development with PvP and PvE in mind because this was the nature of the way the game is designed. We can also say that PvP is hindered by the PvE community voicing their opinion on matters such as skill balance, party size (6v6 Ha anyone), etc.. When balancing a skill or class they dont just do it with PvP in mind, they also have to consider the ramifications on the PvE community. If it was up to the PvP community the Dervish, Ritualist, Assassin, and Paragon class wouldnt even exist as they were broken upon implamintation and never really and completely balanced even to this day. Skill balancing is also effected by this. There is a handful of skills that the PvP community would love to see completely removed from this game, but the uproar that would cause in the PvE community is what keeps the devs from doing so.

Also I'm curious about something you said and this made me laugh for 5 minutes, but did you actually write support about this topic? Did they laugh at you as hard as we are?

Spazzer · Sep 25, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Skill balances are not as extremely important in PvP as most think...
...impact on PvE...

Skill balances only have an impact on PvP; they make no difference in PvE. There have been only two skill balances with PvE in mind.

TWO

Protective Bond was changed so that it would not remove only 1 energy at 17 protection.
Spirit Bond was changed so that it would be limited on how many hits in its duration it would heal on.

These two skill balances made little difference to the face of the PvE game.

Du Kor · Sep 25, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Wow, that's bull**** to the 10th power. How did you manage to convince yourself of that? As if NO OTHER GAME has a class/profession system where your primary whatever is unchangeable...no, obviously Guild Wars introduced the profession system just because it made recognizing classes in PvP easier.

Ah my fault again. I read somewhere, appolgies that i dont remember where, that having the char types instantly recognizable for what they were in PvP was a design decision. And if that should change I am sure the PvP community would be up in arms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

No, you want it to change. And considering how misguided you are about game design in general, I'd say you're not particularly the voice of reason the devs should be listening to.

Hmm. Yes i want it to change and yes the user community HAS changed sinced the beginning of GW.

Misguided about game design in general? You say.. devs should.. I missed the part where you presented credentials on your expertese to speak as an expert of either group.

Du Kor · Sep 25, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Then again it boils down to you bought the wrong game. ...

No I didnt buy the wrong game. I am just hoping they will make it better for me. And if they separarted PvP they could make it better for the PvP people too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Also I'm curious about something you said and this made me laugh for 5 minutes, but did you actually write support about this topic? Did they laugh at you as hard as we are?

No not this topic.

We? Other than yourself who do you speak for?

Yichi · Sep 25, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

No I didnt buy the wrong game. I am just hoping they will make it better for me. And if they separarted PvP they could make it better for the PvP people too.

They have already stated that they will not and cannot seperate PvP and PvE in Guildwars. They might do it for GW2, but they will not be doing it for this game because of the design of the game.

And again, as seen time and time before, because someone automatically has a thought or idea, that it should seriously be considered to make the game better for them. You said it yourself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

We? Other than yourself who do you speak for?

I can almost guarentee that had you have actually said you wrote support on this issue, 90% if not more (I'm sure I'm not the only one at the moment anyway that IS laughing) of the community would have been laughing their ass off.

Perth68 · Sep 25, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The effect is only minor depending on how much a person was using that skill in its original form.

Adding new skills to offset skills that people veiw as over powered makes no impact on PvE, save it adds new skills that a montser may use against you. Changing skills does have a major impact on how a person plays this game.

Having a build that is fun to play with changed due to no fault on your part is tantamount to somebody changing the channel while your in the middle of your favorite TV show.

As long as a skill is being balanced, and not being ruined its a good thing for PvE and not just a good thing for PvP. I understand when they change your bar, a part of your character, people get angry, but as long as its still viable and not ruined (which is the goal of balance) it doesn't force them to change their character. Balance for PvE is important and players that truly want overpowered skills are players that I hope this game isn't designed or intended for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

PvErs hate change when the change was done for soley PvP consderations.

Why? PvE has tons of in game rewards: prestiege armor, greens, gold, festival hats, etc. Why can't PvP have any? In fact I think PvP should have unique rewards from PvE to encourage people to play both, so they both have unique rewards. Plus this is something that already exits in the game, the Hall of Heroes gives unique rewards to the victors. I've never heard that the problem with Halls is that it gives crystalines and sigils.

If you meant real life rewards, like the guild wars championships, I also don't understand. Its something that isn't only beneficial to the PvP side of the game its good for the whole game. I don't think any PvPer would really care if PvE had championships with rewards as long as the championships were based on skill, like on the challenge mission ladder. But its something I don't think PvEr's want and if thats the case why do you care?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

There can be no PvE evolution because it is tied down by the requirement of PvP.

I disagree. I think PvE benefits from being connected to PvP because it encourages a more balanced skill based PvE. A progression to a more traditional rpg, an rpg that is based on timed accomplishments is devolving. As an outside observer to WoW (been to busy playing this game to play it ) I think the secret to its success among other things is actually because it is less grindy, that its leveling mechanic is based more on quest rewards rather than the brute repetition of slaying monsters.

I'm not saying that a PvP game with PvE is a better game. I'm saying PvE game that focuses on skill is a better a game and a game that does has no reason to be separate from PvP.

Crom The Pale · Sep 26, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

If the impact was not concidered major by the people it effected this thread would not even exist.

It is a rare thing when people run a pvp build in pve, what I am reffering to is things like IWAY or 8 monks. Would these builds work in pve, maybe, but they usually have some flaw like not being able to deal with a mob of lvl 28 foes. MM build, ranger spike builds, Obsidian flame spike, spirit spam, ect...
All of these builds were created by people that saw a skill or skill set that would be fun and powerful. Was they absolutely no counter to these? No. But people did not like having to run the counter as it was weak to something else. That sounds like balance to me, like people seeing a foe and finding a means to overcome it. That is what PvE is all about. We dont get to have the monster only skills nerfed if its to hard or the mobs size reduced.

Now there are some, not many, but some cases where a skill is very broken and has no viable counter. In these cases the skill should be fixed, however, there is a fine line between fixing a skill and nerfing it completely. Changing how a skill works or its wording or damage can be a small adjustment or a drastic one. Anet always went for the drastic change for the most part. That is what annoyed many many players.

During the GWEN preview the skill Ferral Aggression was introduced. After the preview and before the release of GWEN the skill was nerfed.
They trippled its cost and halved its effects. This was not done because it was over powered in pve, nobody complained about it. It was done because somebody thought it might lead to abuse in PvP.

Is the skill still useable? I say not as it now is, for the cost + dmg I get more bang from other skills. Was ther a way of fixing it that would not kill it, yes. This has been true for most if not all of the skills changed to balance pvp.

Saying that you can play pve with an empty skill bar is a joke, you can play pvp with one to, doesnt mean youll win or have fun. I play to have fun, and having my builds changed so that they do not work as they used to is not what I call fun.

In pve we are constantly forced to bring skills that will counter our foes, in pvp you seam to want your foes to simply stop using those skills.

edit: It was late when I originaly wrote this, not sure it makes much sense or was just a rant.....in the end all that really matters is that what once was fun is slowly becoming less fun. And that my friends is very sad.